Google+ Discussion about HDR photography back in 2011

(by pio dal cin) Codognè   When I first joined +Google+  back in July 2011, I had a very heated argument with some  of the best photographers about HDR photography. Some of the comments were really heavy (someone called Trey said that I was a moron) and most of the photographers attacked me verbally as you can see if you care reading the thread. 
I have not changed my mind, even if my respect for those who believe in HDR has not changed. Heavy duty HDR is not for me. I enjoy a simpler "old fashioned " way of taking photos.



Sep 2, 2011  -  Public
Sometimes I laugh at comments like this.. sometimes I shake my head... I just dont get how people need to make photography this absolute "It is this.. it is that.. it is not this.. therefore you guys cant play in my sandbox"

There's probably a generation of people out there now going 'what the heck is a darkroom'.. and that's totally cool... these things are all just tools.. we need to chill..

(.. course I had to comment.. :) )


pio dal cin originally shared this post:
Sorry HDR photographers. From my point of view you are JUST painters using a different media and call it Photography? Get out of my obsolete darkroom. Try to capture Mother Nature's beautiful moments without distorting to a point where one doesn't know where the picture ends and the painting begins.
Get out of my darkroom and stick to your ultramodern media, computers and photoshop, but please, do not call yourselves photographers call yourselves flea market's images sellers. I am tired of all your stupid bullshit on the beauty of false images!
Dirk Vietzke's profile photo
1

+17

156 comments



Emmett LollisSep 2, 2011
+
7
8
7
Oh man, I guess we need to remove Ansel Adams form the photography history timeline since he did HDR in his darkroom.



Michael SteighnerSep 2, 2011
Indeed, I agree with ya RC.....an opinion for all though I guess.



Darryl BrooksSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
yup, dodging and burning came from the darkroom, not photoshop.



Terrell WoodsSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
I think RC and Scott Kelby just said a few days ago ...if you have nothing really good to say...well maybe the guy feels better now



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
I know.. I went in and left a comment for him.. but at the same time.. i'm like... thats gonna go nowhere..

I think we spend way too much time arguing with people on what isand isnt photography...



Dean BradshawSep 2, 2011
Wowza! Who does this guy think he is?!



John AdamsSep 2, 2011
Pio's having a bad day!

Nice point RC. Keep it simple and above all enjoyable I am always amazed and inspired more daily with the creative growth of the art -;0)



Brian MitchellSep 2, 2011
Do you suppose that if they had Google+ when color film came along we would have heard the same kind of thing? It's stunning to me how people feel the need to bash what is nothing more than another leap in technology.



Colby BrownSep 2, 2011
+
2
3
2
Haha...man +RC Concepcion, I am sure you were nicer then I would have been. Photography is a median in which we create art. People like that just make me shake my head.

Hope you are doing well man!



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
+
4
5
4
Dean - right... it's the "You kids get off my lawn" defense



Benoit ChasséSep 2, 2011
For two reasons, I didn't get into HDR yet (don't have the equipment and software for it right now) but I enjoy the HDR photos when I see some...



Darryl BrooksSep 2, 2011
+
1
1
2
1
Everything after berry juice on cave walls is just a bunch of ultramodern crap.






Stephanie HayesSep 2, 2011
+
2
3
2
wow that is just insane. To each their own. I never understand why some people feel the need to slam the things that bring others joy



Mark HoustonSep 2, 2011
+
4
5
4
"From my point of view you are JUST painters using a different media and call it Photography? " A sentence like this one, is the first sign that someone has been inhaling way too much stop bath and fixer......:)



Tim WylerSep 2, 2011
Maybe the guy is right. Let's all throw away software and go back to the darkroom! Who's in?!!



Ernest WSep 2, 2011
I thought HDR was attempt to replicate the vast dynamic range the human eyes sees but digital sensors mostly fail to capture.
So where does the wild color posterization effect come in?



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011 (edited)
+
1
2
1
I had actually written "Go back and take a look at your pictures.. really really look at them... then come back and ################" but then hit delete.. cause thats not cool..



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
+
7
8
7
The point here woulda been "how would it feel if someone took what you feel is so dear and told you you sucked at it.. prob not good.. so why make other people feel that way"



Donovan James KingSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
Is the line between photographic technique blurred or is it the line between the defining paintbrush being squid? If you used a camera dipped in ink for a brush than the image is a painting. Other wise images from the lens are a valid photographic images. Multimedia is also acceptable description for things that include more than one pure element. Pure photography is lost if your not mixing chemistry it could argued or making your own copper or glass plates with some liquid BRUSHED on emulsion like liquid light. The level of manipulation an artist puts to a image starts way before they add any blunt physical elements with the artist own eye seeking a subject. The modern camera is a lens with a computer attached too it. The darkroom once a wall of jars full of poison's like a mad scientist lab all doing magic things when mixed just right, now replaced with every computer that can hold an image phones, laptops, desktops, tablets, mp3 players...etc.

I guess my point is if you like the image isn't that enough? It took us as humans a long time to get this far,so enjoy the history and rejoice in the ART..



Dennis OderSep 2, 2011
I think he's trying to say... "Photography has not evolved an inch from the primordial film that spawned it".



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
Tim.. my room is dark right now... i even have lights out mode in Lightroom all setup...



Lee DanielsSep 2, 2011
I think I injured myself wincing...



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
Donovan - AMEN..

Lee.. I didnt say it.. !!! here.. lemme delete.. :)



scyna bSep 2, 2011
+
2
3
2
his head shot sums it up ! 



James DriscollSep 2, 2011
+
4
5
4
Yeah it was better not to get dragged in to his world... like the famous quote goes... "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."



Emmett LollisSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
Every camera has a limited range of light that it can pick up on in any given exposure. Any image created in daylight with a single exposure is going to be missing some of the details that the human eye could normally see. The way I see it, an HDR image can actually look more realistic than a traditional photo.



Mark HoustonSep 2, 2011
I really don't miss the days of the darkroom.



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
scyna - dude.. i almost shot coffee from my nose...



Lee DanielsSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
+RC Concepcion I know you didn't!
Trust me, I'm a former teacher and still jury shows. I hear this a lot and all you can do is let your eyes glaze over and move on.



Scott NewmanSep 2, 2011
+
2
3
2
I remember when this was all farm land.



Dennis OderSep 2, 2011 (edited)
+
1
2
1
+scyna b His head shot might be pretty cool with a little single image HDR and some Topaz Adjust...



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
Air Jordans have springs in them.. cheaters..



Jim DenhamSep 2, 2011
+RC Concepcion Great reply on his blog RC. He's already got more attention from his comment than he'll ever get for his pictures.



Tim WylerSep 2, 2011
In my day we played ball barefoot!



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
+
4
5
4
What i think is funny is that the third person in his circle is +Trey Ratcliff - I'm like.. um.. I hate to break it to you man...






Dennis OderSep 2, 2011
ROFL...I'm listening to The Grid about commenting on posted images and looking at this guys port, and I get to the cats on both...



Stephanie HayesSep 2, 2011
you also do not want to be a woman wearing a short skirt on a windy day and be anywhere near this guy-your bum will end up on here lol



scyna bSep 2, 2011
I dont think glamor glow would help him out 



William BeemSep 2, 2011
What compels people to share such points of view?






RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
Ernest - to speak to your ?: "I thought HDR was attempt to replicate the vast dynamic range the human eyes sees but digital sensors mostly fail to capture.
So where does the wild color posterization effect come in?"

Yes.. you are right.. the concept of HDR was meant to bring an extended range .. similar to what the eye sees but sensors fail to realize,,,

Here's the problem with that.. we did that.. and it sucked. It sucked because our monitors weren't able to show us that range, or printers werent able to show us that range.. so here we had this super big file.. with all this tone we couldnt see.

..someone got the idea to take the tone that we "couldnt" see and map it to areas that we "could" see,,.and called it Tonemapping. And just like everything else in this world from Cspan being autotuned to Forest gump shaking hands with Nixon, the artists said "hey... waitaminute... If I... "

.. Which is what we "should" expect from a forward thinking world..

(and I know that you're just asking the question.. not being snarky,. just soapboxing)






Monico HavierSep 2, 2011
Two things: one, I bet Trey Ratcliff is in his circles just to keep his blood boiling (which allows him to create inventive new ways to leave nasty comments). And two,he is probably one of those guys who can't handle a movie that has CGI in it. In movies there's plenty of digital color correction even when there isn't CG. I just think this guy needs to go watch a good Pixar movie and relax...






Christopher HarnishSep 2, 2011
Funny- what ultramodern crap did he use to get his photos up on Google +. I'm afraid some are confrontational about this sudden influx of new ideas along with new technology. If I had to use a darkroom, I'm afraid that I would not be able to take as many pictures as I do now. Thank god for the digital revolution. If you want to stick with film and that is your forte, then great! But why smack up those that just want to use a different kind of brush?



Dennis OderSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
We need to get +Joseph Linaschke to run a post processing contest on Pio's headshot...

As for Glamour Glow, I counter with Spicify!!



Michael SeneschalSep 2, 2011
+RC
My theory is, the majority of bickering about things like technique (ie HDR) as well as camera brand, etc. is from people just getting started with photography.

Do you think experience has something to do with overall understanding into different facets of photography? Not that people become less opinionated with experience (I love, love, love opinionated people... honestly, I do)... rather, with more experience comes a better understanding when and when NOT to used certain techniques like HDR?



Darcy BowenSep 2, 2011
If he put all the energy from that anger into his photography he'd be a lot happier and have better work to show for it. +Dennis Oder Too funny!



Chris BagleySep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
Let's face it, if Ansel Adams were alive today, he would have a Nikon D3X! Just saying :)



Dennis OderSep 2, 2011
+
4
5
4
+Chris Bagley Nikon? Really?? I picture Ansel out in Yellowstone with a Fuji X100 yelling "Focus DAMMIT, FOCUS!!"



Ernest WSep 2, 2011
+Monico Havier, I enjoy watching Top Gun once in a while cause they didn't need CGI to tell a story.
There's art in making all those miniatures for the shots.

Think I don't get tone-mapping, +RC Concepcion
My eyes don't appreciate it.



Ali ElhajjSep 2, 2011
+RC Concepcion i think a lot anti-hdrers (anti-HDRites?) forget how much work goes into the capture process and the importance of all the fundamentals.

Now not everyone likes what happens in post- some of my stuff is surreal and some of it has a more natural look. But that's art, no? (not defending overcooked hdr here, I'm just saying not everything needs to be as seen with the naked eye)



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
Michael - I agree... I think that a lot of this has to do with the fear of the unknown... and the fear that the thing that you've worked on for such a long time is being taken away by X....

I think photography is a craft... its something you spend time learning and playing with... and all these things that you learn in the middle of it are just stylings of that craft. I think that when we dont have that much experience.. or when we dont have that strong of a voice, it's our first intention to just up and yell.. best defense / good offense kind of stuff..

I remember when I used to teach in the school district a LONG time ago.. there were this group of teachers that were SO against the internet... what with these AOL disks and this "Welcome.. you got mail,, " I like my mail from the postman thank you..

After a little while.. they got to playing with it.. and couldnt get off of the thing.. that kind of stuff happens if you let yourself listen to it... sometimes we dont though..



Ian EisenbergSep 2, 2011
What absolutely kills me is that he has a post that is essentially an upskirt shot. Street porn. NICE!
But damn that new-fangledy HDR.



Robert WaltersSep 2, 2011
The nerve of some people, I just don't get it. Poor guy probably doesn't even know how to open Photoshop. Keep on Rockin' RC!



Rev J VegasSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
There are many ways to drive traffic to your site/blog...being an ass is just one way.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.



Eyad AbutahaSep 2, 2011
I'm not a professional photographer and i can tell his photos are just as bad as mine.
But this ignorant should know that taking a picture of the POP does not make you a photographer, and also he said in bio page “Love to shoot people with a story on their faces” so what is this ass photo creepy.



Michael SeneschalSep 2, 2011
+RC Concepcion Agreed. Seems like we agree 100% on this topic. I think the fear of unknown rears its ugly head in other areas (like race, religion... all that stuff that I don't talk about at the Thanksgiving table). I just wish the human species would default to curiosity-of-the-unknown rather than fear-of-the-unknown. Hope all's well. :)



Moose PetersonSep 2, 2011
+
4
5
4
RC...you ever consider it might just be basic psychology, putting others down to make yourself fell better? It's done by everyone, some are just more public about it. As you and I both know first hand, HDR is so much more, we've both seen it in each others images. And that's really the bottomline.



Monico HavierSep 2, 2011
I'm also curious if 'pio dal cin' would have an issue with a photographer like Joe McNally (and the countless photographers who he has inspired or taught) using flash(s) to "paint with light" by putting light into dark places to see detail or by placing gels onto his flash to create a look or mood. While it may not be HDR as we normally think of HDR it certainly is photography and I'd never tell someone like Joe that it wasn't just because I couldn't do it as well as he does.

Ernest W, I enjoy a good classic with lots of extras and elaborate sets (such as a Kurosawa Samurai film) but I don't hold it against a current director for using digital technology to help tell his story. There's good and bad HDR photography just like there's good and bad CGI heavy movies, but the bad CGI movies usually aren't bad because of the CGI. I'm just not the kind of person that looks at something and instantly excludes it for one reason or another. I prefer to be inclusive when it comes to seeing other peoples work.






Moose PetersonSep 2, 2011
+
7
8
7
Moose is freakin everywhere, not not mental anywhere :-)



Michael LawsonSep 2, 2011
This reminds me, I took some bracketed shots of Lake Powell during my sisters wedding I promised I would redo with some of the new tricks I've picked up from watching RC and Scott.....so I'm just going to roll my eyes at this guy and go get busy tone mapping :)



Mark RodriguezSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
i had a similar conversation just the other day with someone bashing me for drawing on my Xoom tablet in Sketchbook pro and he said that wasn't real art. the guy was a tattoo artist and i asked him if he tattoos using the traditional Japanese method of hand tapping a needle to imbued the ink in the skin or do you use a modern electric tattoo gun?...he shut up real quick



Averil HallSep 2, 2011
I just pity the poor bloke because he must be in a rut to close his eyes to what tools are available to him to open up a whole new world of 'wowdem' (sometimes I like to make up words lol)



Blake RudisSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
I pity his wallet, that darkroom shit is expensive!



Daniel SchwabeSep 2, 2011 (edited)
+RC Concepcion I suspect few people know this CD Rom (remember them?) produced by the extinct Voyager, called "Truths & Fictions", which is a great hypermedia rendering of a discussion between photographer Pedro Meyer and his colleagues on this general theme. There is also a book, and an online version athttp://www.pedromeyer.com/galleries/truths/.
Really worth looking at it...



Ron CliffordSep 2, 2011
+RC Concepcion How Ironic! If it wasn't so unfortunate it would be way too funny . If I paint a picture that looks like a photo am I an artist pretending to be a photographer or photographer imitating an artist? I'm so confused!



Marlo MontanaroSep 2, 2011 (edited)
I usually don't comment on HDR stuff, but thought I would here. First, a misconception. The human eye does NOT have a lot of dynamic range. In fact, it is VERY limited. What the human eye has is the ability to rapidly adjust its "aperture" as it scans the scene. We perceive this as an ability to "take in" highlights and shadows. Prove this to yourself by looking at a backlit scene and staring at one spot. You'll find you lose shadow or highlight detail, depending on where you're looking. Anyway- felt like saying that.

As far as Pio is concerned, well, no one is holding a gun to his head saying he has to look at any picture he doesn't like. If he doesn't like HDR photos, he is perfectly free not to look at HDR photos. If he doesn't think they are photos? Well, a rose by any other name... The technology allows millions of people to create these images. Whether he thinks they are photographs or the people who make them are photographers is irrelevant

They exist.



Robert FretwellSep 2, 2011
Wow, seriously? With a photostream like what is on his profile he is going to say that +Trey Ratcliff is not a real photographer?






Chris BagleySep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
That's exactly where Robert Bateman is, his paintings look like photographs so does that mean he's not an amazing painter?



Ron CliffordSep 2, 2011
+RC Concepcion +Michael Seneschal I used to be a restoration and retouching artist and teacher of the craft.. You remember when we had retouching brushes? Airbrushes? I actually was seriously impacted by the "new"technology and my career was not too subtly affected! Today you cant pry that new technology from me. There is hope for our friend yet!

I'm sure when colour film was introduced it was just a gimmick that would never catch on!



David TeoSep 2, 2011
I think I am young enough to appreciate MTV, Pixar animations, CGI animations, 3D movies and stuff, and I do, and totally revel in them.

But I think I agree with +Ernest W (wow, somebody that knows Top Gun too!!) in the sense that I don't appreciate wildly posterized HDR images or images that look obviously HDR. While I don't agree with the way the original poster puts it, I do also think that is no longer in the realm of photography, but digital art.

And there's nothing wrong with digital art - that's why I also follow guys like +Trey so I could enjoy wonderfully created digital art - much the same way I enjoy an over-the-top Lady Gaga MTV, the CGI involved in Captain America, or the cool animations in Cars 2.

But I wouldn't do it myself, even if I acknowledge it as a contemporary technique now used by photographers to create art. I shoot digital mostly too, and do things like dodge and burn, but I work within the limits of one file, and if I couldn't make the image sing with 1 file, I just accept the image as it is, or if I can, go back to the same place and wait for better / more subtle light.

I love going back to the same locations for landscape photography to see the variations in light.

When I shoot with slide film (not often nowadays though) life is much easier - I scan the slide and use photoshop to make the file look like what I see on my slide.

Simple truthful images that I identify myself with. That's photography to me. Of course your mileage will vary :)



Wilfredo CastroSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
RC; This is another proof that you are doing an excellent job with your photography. Just laugh and keep going.



Jeremy CowartSep 2, 2011
+
7
8
7
HDR is simply another genre of photography. Music has Jazz, Country, Pop, Rap, Electronic, Folk, Gospel, etc. etc. This guy is an old, country guitar player saying that electronic music isn't music. It's just silly.



David TeoSep 2, 2011
Wow +jeremy I love the idea of HDR as a separate genre of photography 



Moose PetersonSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
RC....you happy now....another long thread involving HDR ;-)



Jason BryantSep 2, 2011
omg: here: argue with Webster:

Photography: the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface (as film or a CCD chip)

Photographer: : one who practices photography

Nothing in the definition as to the quality. But here are some common distinctions.

Professional: b : having a particular profession as a permanent career (this is the one the IRS uses)

Amateur:2: one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession
3: one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science

Some people like one thing some people like another. Take it or leave it. But you can't argue with webster!



Lyn CaudleSep 2, 2011
Hmm, some people, wonder what he thought of Cartier Bresson, or some of the older greats who "created new ways to do things, probably thinks Ansel Adams was a hack, but I would remind this ( so hard not to use an explicative here) guy that Ansel was the first HDR photographer, as it were, you know the zone system. That was an attempt to capture as much light and information as possible.



Michael PrestonSep 2, 2011
In my most humble opinion, photographers of yesteryear would have most willingly embraced the technology that is available today, and most assuredly what is to come in the future. I think it's time to ignore the MORONS such as pio dal cin. The old internet phrase "Don't feed the trolls" comes to mind. Are you listening, RC? You're famous for this kinda stuff, please get off your soapbox. You're simply perpetuating the issues.



Kevin RankSep 2, 2011
Wow... How... narrow minded. I learn the tools, so I am not restricted in capturing AND presenting the photograph I want. Be it high ISO, HDR, timelapse, Photoshop, etc. They are all tools.

This guy has it in his head that only HIS type of photography, is photography. It must be a very sad, little world he lives in.






Matt FenimoreSep 2, 2011
+RC Concepcion your stream is one of the most entertaining so far on G+. From "White and Nerdy," going "Jedi" with the M9, and HDR vs film darkroom. I miss my darkroom too, but 'the times are a changing.'



Kevin RankSep 2, 2011
+Matt Fenimore I only used a dark room for 1 semester in High School... the experience drove me out of photography, until digital cameras came out! :-)



Craig ThoburnSep 2, 2011
Great comment RC. I am always amazed by comments like this. When we moved from an analogue camera to a digital camera is it no longer a photograph. No. Then why is it when we move from an analogue darkroom to a digital darkroom somehow the answer changes? Yes it is different and yes we can do new things. Ansel Adams did many amazing things and I never seen anyone claim he was not a photographer. HDR is a way of processing an image, it's no different from cross processing or anything else. The results... well that comes down to what you like (I have friends who don't like black and white and I think you would have a hard time convincing people that BW is not photography.)



Matt FenimoreSep 2, 2011
I spent 3 years in the lab in college... less then a month after graduation I bought a digital camera. Two Worlds. But it's all photography.



Ramon SanchezSep 2, 2011
all right! El pio got his 5 min of Fame, we have to be nice, let's let him go back to the dark room!!!



Cary SpanglerSep 2, 2011
I can't figure out why he's talking about a darkroom. Looking at the snapshots in his gallery they were mostly taken with a Canon G10. So I guess reality is now defined by Canon's engineers.



Gweneth MurphySep 2, 2011
I am nowhere near of being a photographer. I do it as a hobby when I have free time, which is barely because of working full-time, being a full-time single parent, and a full-time student. I think photography encompasses using all the tools available to you to make your work stand out. That includes using Photoshop, HDR software, or anything you like and keeping up with technology. And, being accepting of all the other forms of photography out there.

RC - Ignore that idiot. Obviously, he is one of those who complains about "computers ruining the world" because he refuses to even try using one.



Jacob SerranoSep 2, 2011
He basically says that because HDR distorts reality it's not real photography. Well, aren't his black and white images a distortion as well? Does that mean he's a "painter", as he'd call it.



Peter MetzSep 2, 2011
+
1
2
1
I'm of the Donovan school. Call it photography, painting, illustration, whatever. The lines become more blurred everyday. From my pov the image is all that matters. The rest is just labels. In my world digital video has broken down the walls between the disciplines of video, lighting and scenic. It has turned the production world upside down and left crew chiefs scratching their heads. But the audience doesn't care. It's the end result that matters to them not the process. When I look at an image I am either moved or not, I don't try and place it in an irrelevant niche. Ok, I do try to reverse engineer it, but that's just me.




Cosmin MicoaraSep 2, 2011
maybe we can say this man have photoshopfobia :)) , come on it is 2011 we are no longer in 1900 .light it , shoot it and retouch it like scott kelby say :D



Philip GolanSep 2, 2011 (edited)
+Emmett Lollis Exactly. I always point out to people that comment like this, that Ansel Adams was the father of HDR.



Ronnie BoehmSep 2, 2011
This guy is on a mission, I doubt anyone/anything will change his opinion. I am just glad the "pure, unedited, un-HDR'd reality" I live in doesn't suck as much.

By the way,+RC Concepcion+Scott Kelby, I think you might be supporting the wrong kind of behavior. After the grid I now know that Mr. Kelby would take a look at my pictures if I told him his suck (they don't), and Mr. Concepcion would take a look at my pictures if I spread some random hate (I won't). You will make people post crap just so you look at their stuff!



Stuart MackenzieSep 2, 2011
Ahh yes, but some people are using HDR to cover up a ho-hum photograph, and yes I cut my teeth doing darkroom effects over 20 yrs ago. The trouble is HDR is different things to different people. Trying to make a picture similar to what your eyes can see by subtle adjustment of tones can look OK, but it can also be overdone, and it can also look fugly (IMHO) if all the sliders are up to 11.



Stephan BollingerSep 2, 2011
but, but..., i mean, hey... don't you remember - it was all better in the good old days, you know, when we were still young and beautiful...



Todd BurkeSep 2, 2011 (edited)
+Emmett Lollis , that is exactly what I always think when this comes up too, the camera can't pick up the dynamic range our eyes can so really you can throw back the same argument at them and say current technology in photography is altering what we would normally see as well. :-P



J. Andrew WalkerSep 2, 2011
There is good HDR and there is not-so-good (downright bad) HDR and the difference between the two is often in the eyes of the beholder. To me good HDR is that which tries to accurately reproduce what is seen by the human eye.

If executed correctly an HDR image should appear more realistic than anything that could be produced in a darkroom. If executed incorrectly it may look like something out of a comic book.



Jim BullardSep 2, 2011
I use a simplification filter on some of my photos and they end up looking like paintings. I've been told that I really shouldn't call them photos. My response is a question, if a painter paints in a photo-realistic style do you tell them that the things they create aren't paintings?



Stephan BollingerSep 2, 2011
btw remember our conversation +RC Concepcion about stupid comments? Lesson learned: "Never argue with an idiot, he will suck you down to his level and then beat you with experience."



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
lol.... I gotta say.. I absolutely love the level of community that there is here on G+ - its very refreshing (and blood pressure rising inducing)



Chris PossSep 2, 2011
In any profession, hobby, or interest, I've always come across folks like this - defining the only way the work/process is supposed to be done. I try and ignore them, but it is tough at times. Regardless, all the new techniques that are available today in the broad discipline of photography greatly excite me! Especially, since I didn't really like working in the darkroom - I much prefer the computer as my darkroom.



Veronica PhillipsSep 2, 2011
One of the things we learn in life is that some folks are "fixed" in their thinking. Rather than learn something new they cling to the little bit they know.



Hugo OropezaSep 2, 2011
These debates happen. I'm sure "classical" painters scoffed at Picasso. Today how many of us go to an art gallery and say,"That's art?!" What new camera technology will make us wonder to ourselves, does that feel like cheating a bit?



Stephan BollingerSep 2, 2011
Guys, remember, we have to be careful with all this new technology stuff. Just imagine what would happen if there would be such a thing as a light bulb, thousands of candle makers would be out of their jobs! And while I rant anyway, I say: bring back the cassette tapes!



Helge MortensenSep 2, 2011 (edited)
It is always funny to read comments when somebody say that they hate HDR. And everybody that comes in to support the poor guy or dislike him. But most people that starts with HDR does a terrible job in processing. It would have been fun to take a look at RC's first ever HDR :) When I first got +RC Concepcion new book about HDR. I had to rub my eyes and really see if it really was HDR. So that is my goal in the future, is to get at least one final processed image, to look like his work :) And also cross my fingers that Canon will come with a new 5D mkIII with more than 3 automatic bracketed images. Right now it's a pain to get 5 or 7 images. I know Nikon have it but that is a new discussion :)



RC ConcepcionSep 2, 2011
You could do it with just EV control ...or.... I know you'll hate hearing it... There's a device out there ppl are using called a promote control... Helps on the canon side ... Can be worth it but not cheap



Jonathan RiceSep 2, 2011
RC, very nice retort to his original post. I agree with you on all of your points. It is interesting to me how some people just don't "get it" when it comes to creative. No matter what "it" is, some people just can't grasp what makes "it" good or great. I've worked with people my whole life who have an understanding of the technical and craft but can't create truly amazing work despite all their knowledge. We see this in all forms of art. There are those who know what brush to use or what lens to use, but what comes out isn't good. They don't get "it". "It" is an intangible for them. But "it" is real. People who get "it" are the ones we all look up to whether in photography, art, sports, acting, etc. I believe people either have "it" or they don't. Some people can learn what "it" is and can get better, but there are a lot of folks that can't be taught. These latter folks are hard to talk to, because they just can't come to grips with the fact that they just do get "it".



Kevin GrahamSep 2, 2011
While I'm "over" people complaining about HDR, and have accepted it as a true form of Photography. I am starting to relate to HDR haters when it comes to Instagram photography. You took a subpar picture, picked from one of the 20 sneaker effects, and bam.

Don't get me wrong, even I've used it on occasion for fun. But, when photographers insist on dressing every picture that goes on Twitter/Facebook with Instagram's care package, I question the technique.






Ken VanPeltSep 2, 2011 (edited)
I wonder how many filters he carries in his bag to "adjust" his shots. He must only use a single prime lens so the perspective is never distorted either. And never, ever remove a pimple form a bride's face in a wedding picture.



Jeff HillSep 3, 2011
Amish photographer is......amish.



Mike Nelson PeddeSep 3, 2011
Everyone is entitled to their opinion... no matter how wrong they may be!

Mike.






David KaiserSep 3, 2011
+
1
2
1
well he lives in an obsolete world...everybody has a point but digital photography is nothing without a good eye AND the digital darkroom...don´t think that any great sport,landscape or what ever out there knows about digital photography and working with digital tools



Tibor VrbaSep 3, 2011
i like HDR, you do not, ok, do not look at them, move along. My point of view.






Doug WardSep 3, 2011
I find it funny that as we all post our thoughts and comments and were having our discussions and stuff,,,, the funny thing is that the one comment that got this going from Pio,,,, is that he has not once came on here to say ANYTHING about this. I can't stand people that slam something and run and hide. Trey was right,,, what a moron !!!



Dirk VietzkeSep 4, 2011
After so many opinions and I still feel I want to add something: it doesn't matter if darkroom or photoshop. They are just tools to realize our artistic expression. The idea of an expression forms in our head, then it's processed using tools and techniques and then it's shared. The process has never changed since the caveman painted the walls. It's just a different process today. For me personally, mastering the technique is important but the concept of an expression is the crucial step ...



Dirk VietzkeSep 4, 2011
Moron or not, I guess he us entitled to his opinion. Essentially, he just added some bubbles to the world of social networks while we create and share ideas ... 



Michael SeneschalSep 4, 2011
+
1
2
1
I also like* how this guy refers to a SOOC photo as REALITY. This proves that he's delusional.

A photograph will never be reality. Because a photograph is a photograph. REALITY is reality.... a photograph is something printed on paper or viewed on a screen.

Not even going into long shutter speeds, BW, or how certain focal lengths distort images... a photograph will NEVER be reality... it'll ALWAYS be a piece of paper (or metal, or whatever surface it's printed on). 






Dirk VietzkeSep 4, 2011 (edited)
+RC Concepcion +pio dal cin +Michael Seneschal
I added some comments on Pio's posts yesterday evening just to find myself "blocked" this morning. Here is my bloody cheers to freedom of expression. I just called his flat image of some Italian mountain neo-nihilist. However, in general I like the posts of the guy. I just don't share his view of photography.



Dirk VietzkeSep 4, 2011
+pio dal cin +RC Concepcion
Pio, thanks for adding me to your circles. I have returned the favour and I'm looking forward to great sharing and discussions in the future.
I want to add a Dali quote: "Intelligence without ambition is like a bird without wings"



pio dal cinSep 4, 2011
First I'd like to thank all of you who called me a moron.
Most of your opinions are against my point of view on HDR ptgphy and therefore I should rest my case right?
Wrong.
I dedicated my life to phtgphy and risked to lose it a couple of times in war areas. My decision of covering war wasn't as easy as for most of you sitting behind your computers post editing pictures and make them into futuristic paintings instead of photo. I remember a quote by Robert Capa saying "It takes 1/125 of a second to take a photo and a whole day to spoil it".
I have always believed in reality and genuinity of my pictures. Blurry? Out of focus? Have you ever tryed taking a picture with a shity manual camera while someone is shooting at you? Would you care more to take home a photo that is telling a story without spending any words(even if out of focus or blurry) or would you rather spend hours post editing it to make it into a defect free image that will make your audience go " wow that is a great image".
I have seen some great paintings in Hdr photography but I still have a question for all of you that are so fast in making smart remarks at my comments. Aren't you losing the very sense of genuinity and reality that has made photography one of the most loved media in the world?
Why in the world would you want to post edit a sunset or a sunrise? A beautiful landscape? I can understand adding some or other minor retouching, but revolutionize a photo to the point that you don't even recognize it from its original it's like adding some heavy makeup to a beautiful model to make it look beautiful. If it is already beautiful ( the photo) it will always be. If it is a shity picture, it doesn't matter how much time you spend behind the monitor...
I am not attacking Hdr photography as not being a form of art that many enjoy. Art is undefinable and thus subjective to one's sensibility. I do agree that it is Art. What I do not agree is when is called photography.
Sure, we are in the 3 rd millennium, media have evolved and the tools are countless to modify what is real, but here is the question: why do you always have to modify reality? Do you really think you can do better in the light room than Mother Nature into making a scenery better than it was when you clicked? Your answers will probably be yes, but why? What is the meaning of making it better? You probably are creating something different not necessarly better and is that art? Of course it is, but in the very moment you take the picture in the computet to post edit it you are making an artwork out of your photo, you are giving up the genuinity of that shot to create something that is not what it was in the beginning. You are using the raw picture as a canvas and you take out your brushes and colours(software) and start modifying it. So that makes you a painter not a photographer.
On D day Robert Capa took those pictures that we all saw at least once. They are blurry and out of focus ( he even wrote a book with that title"slightly out of focus").
Since +trey ratcliff is one of those who called me a moron( thanks for the attention) I would like to ask him if he would fix those photos if he had a chance to do it. I sure wouldn't lose the genuinity and reality of those images who made them so unique, but I am just a moron who belongs to the ages of the darkroom. I am obsolete and probably not even considered worth of an intelligent answer.
What I know is that I made photography being my life and dedicated all my life to photography even if it meant giving up on making money because I lived my life as a free man living and making my living on the street of the world to be closer to what inspired me the most: People.
Having expressed all of my love for genuine photography I will take all the negative comments you have expressed in my direction because I am not thinking the same way you do and with the time, I'll answer you one by one. I thank God for internet it is (still) a free country where one can express ones opinion without being hanged for thinking differently. I am sure that some of you, great Hdr photographers given the opportunity would have gladly thrown me out. You may do so by decircling me from your elitarian world but you will not make me remain silent into my convinction that HDR photography taken without moderation is a Great form of modern Art but it is and never will be PHOTOGRAPHY but PAINTING. So happy painting everyone.

Yours truly Moron
pio dal cin



Ken VanPeltSep 4, 2011
+
1
2
1
+pio dal cin pho·tog·ra·phy 1. the process of recording images on sensitized material by the action of light, X-rays, etc, and the chemical processing of this material to produce a print, slide, or cine film
2. the art, practice, or occupation of taking and printing photographs, making cine films, etc
What you are describing is journalistic photography, not photography in general. What you say is true when it comes to journalistic photography as it must be absolutely realistic. But you leave almost no room for artistic photography. Photography is no more or less than capturing an image. I would guess that we could find photographers that don't think you should use filters as they change reality, or do any post processing for the same reason. What constitutes acceptable post processing is a very subjective thing, except when it comes to journalism. In that case, the only acceptable amount is zero.

In many cases, I think photographers carry tone mapping to far but it is still photography. Think of it as artistic photography that has nothing to do with journalism.

I do not think you are a moron. I admire your work and it would be a mistake to apply any modifications to it as it would destroy the message you attempt to confer.



Darlene HildebrandtSep 4, 2011
actually if you take it a step further the literal translation of the word from old Greek means: Photo = light, and Graph = to paint or draw. So photography literally means painting with light, BY definition coined by those that created it in the first place. What does that mean to us? That's subjective hence the heated discussion here.

For me, I'm a fine art photographer who's had a guy with his Gold Amex in hand ready to buy one of my pieces at an art show, then when he found out it was a photograph and NOT a painting he didn't want it any more. In his mind photography is not even art, and it certainly wasn't an "original". So there could start a whole other debate on what is art? But to stay on track with this discussion - in the mind of the public art buyers - photography and painting are not the same thing. I've been told my HDR images look like paintings and people say they think they are paintings - but when I tell them it's a photograph NONE of the customers (general public) argue with me and say, no it's not it's a painting! Because in the minds of most people a painting is done with a brush a oil or acrylic paint on a canvas.

One could argue that we as digital photographers paint with a mouse/brush and our canvas is the computer, or the background image we started with. So in that respect we ARE painting and painters.

My personal opinion is that we as society put too labels on everything, we need things and people to fit nicely and neatly into little boxes. When they don't we fear them. How often do we hear the term "outside the box" and if it's applied to a person they're usually a bit odd or off the wall, or outside the norm of society. So literally they don't fit within the box that we as society have defined for them, or think they should fit into - so they become an outcast, an oddball.

It is those very outcasts and oddballs who are the leaders, inventors, visionaries, creatives, innovators, etc. Think about these people and were they not thought a little odd at some point: Martin Luther King, Einstein, Ben Franklin (he put a key on a kite and got hit by lighting for gods sake), Thomas Edison, or how about Steve Jobs, Donald Trump, Richard Branson? Or maybe we still think of them as odd - but also brilliant and genius!

Just food for thought. I'm just saying - those that are least understood and criticizes and chastised - are probably on to something big!!



pio dal cinSep 5, 2011
+Ken VanPelt Thank you Ken for your precious feedback. I agree with you but I have to say that I do leave room to creative photography, i know that it all depends on which branch one is nested with his/her photography. Maybe I was too much on one side (my side) and did not take in consideration other forms of phtgrphy that include of course HDR?
It is possible but I have always had a great rnot espect for art and anybody else's point of view. HDR is ok if it is not pushed over a certain limit. I prefer call it just HDR not HDR photography. It is more like painting and if treated like painting is a great media. I appreciate your point of view and I thank you again



Ken VanPeltSep 5, 2011
+pio dal cin You are welcome. I had a 35 year career in computer programming and was good at it because I have a logical mind. It makes me see some things differently than others. From my point of view, there has NEVER been a realistic photograph of the world around us because the world is a three dimensional space and photographs are two dimensional. If you take a photograph from a distance with a long lens, the perspective will be skewed and objects will appear closer together than if you were close and shot with full frame/50mm. The picture shot close could be tone mapped to appear as a painting and yet be more accurate than the one shot from a distance.

I have posted four pictures. Which one(s) are tone mapped?



pio dal cinSep 5, 2011
+Ken VanPelt what you say is true. What I love about photography is the chance i have to freeze that particular frame of time forever and when i do I like for it to be as real as possible.



pio dal cinSep 5, 2011
+Darlene Hildebrandt Photo= light Graph=write
Writing with the light.
I value art as I would a butterfly. No box can contain a butterfly, so for art is the same. Art is subjective, not objective. HDR is indeed art but to me it is painting when taken to the max like I've seen for example in +Trey Ratcliff work who calls me a MORON without any eplanation maybe because he thinks he is so famous that he can pass judjments like that on a person he doesn't even know just because it is critizing his work. He is an artist, a great artist, a painter, a great painter...a photographer? I don't know, I will when I will see his photographs without being distorted by heavy post editing. I do like his art, but I am not going to call that "writing with light"



Ken VanPeltSep 5, 2011 (edited)
I agree. One of the photos on my wall is my granddaughter playing soccer at five years of age. That event will never occur again. It is only cropped then printed as shot.

Another is the view down a creek. It is peaceful and I tone mapped it because the camera can't see in the shadows without blowing out the sky. My eyes can so I made the photo match what my eyes saw.

I believe both are still photographs but only one is photojournalism because it records an event accurately. The other reminds of a place and a feeling.



pio dal cinSep 5, 2011
+Trey Ratcliff I just wanted to thank you for calling me a moron. In real life when somebody does that I answer: "You are an asshole" but I will not do that with you because I do have a form of respect that you do not seem to have for people you do not know well.
Maybe you reached the heights of photography but as I looked troughout your work I see a lot of GREAT PAINTINGS. No photographs or pictures. Paintings.
If that is your view of art I deeply respect that but I would never call them pictures (as photographs).
I realize that I am a"nobody" but I do not really care . I took pictures all of my life, risking it a couple of times. I have always clicked for my own pleasure, it is a gut pleasure( I do not know if you have never experimented that) thet pushes you to shoot at that frame of second so that you may freeze it as it is, real, genuine. If others will like it fine, if they wont who cares, if you took it because you loved it that is all that counts.
Not the money you can make out of it, nor the fame you can get from that shot, but just because you love the moment that is bypassing your viewfinder and you wouldn't want to miss it for the world (with no need for post editing or heavy duty photoshopping



Darlene HildebrandtSep 5, 2011
+Ken VanPelt - uh your first two photos of the river and the trees and sky are tone mapped. I can tell by your file names.



Darlene HildebrandtSep 5, 2011
but also by looking - they have a different look and you wouldn't have kept detail in that sky without it in the one with the clouds +Ken VanPelt



Ken VanPeltSep 5, 2011
+Darlene Hildebrandt You are half right. The detail in the sky was in the original shots. It was the trees that were totally black. It was the trees that were recovered by adding fill light and tone mapping to keep the sky and still show the trees the way my eyes could see them.

By the way, the car was also processed because the color of my friends car tends to come out too copper in photographs. The processed photo is more accurate to reality than the original photo.









Ken VanPeltSep 5, 2011
+Darlene Hildebrandt Sorry. There are two galleries. I'll have to be careful to change file names. That made it too easy. I was trying to point out that categorizing all HDR as evil is wrong. Some are so subtle as to be hard to detect.
HDR as a technique does not add any data to the photograph as shot. It only makes data at the extremes of dynamic range appear on a monitor or a print as the human brain can see it in the original setting. The sky shot was a perfect example. When I was seeing it, I could see the rich blue of the sky and the green of the trees. The camera could "see" the sky or the trees but not both at the same time. The data was there but it was not visible because of the huge disparity between the bright sky and the shadowed trees. I did not add any data to the shots; only made what was there visible.
What I produced are photographs and I was insulted when someone decided that he was the arbiter of what was and was not photography.









Philip ArthurSep 5, 2011
+
1
2
1
I have developed and printed in a darkroom. I also learned Photoshop and Illustration at the same time as it was a design degree. Today I shoot with a DSLR and process in my Digital Darkroom, as I like to call it.

Both digital and film have had retouching done to them. Dodge and burn, push and pull processing and airbrushing are all alterations to 'mother nature's beautiful moments'. Even using a reflection is an alteration to what is naturally there.

Photography is 'painting with light' no matter how you look at it. In this more advanced digital age there are more options are available like HDR, but unless you know your tools and how to post process properly none of that matters. Same rules applies with film.

Just get out there, have fun, take photos and share them with the world.



Gisela ConteSep 6, 2011 (edited)
+pio dal cin : with al respect: why do you sound so bitter ? I think is not nice to criticize others work... nowadays there are so many tools to create,, I think its a matter of respect.



Gary BeilbySep 6, 2011
I agree that some HDR images are kinda what my parents used to call "Chocolate Box images". Pictures that are prettier than reality. Sometimes folks get too carried away with HDR processing and end up with images with black skies and overheated shadows. They look fake and simply don't appeal to me. But that's just me! If other people like the look then it is their photography - let them create a market demand and let the photographers fill it! +pio dal cin really is moronic to insist that the images are not photography.



pio dal cinSep 6, 2011
Raul I am glad to hear that you share +trey ratcliff point of view of me being a moron because I am trying to defend the genuinity of photography . I don't really care about your opinion if you do not have enough balls to express your own instead of leaning on your guru's. I am fine being a moron but I can always say what I think without worrying if I will be endorsed by others or not. Few hours ago I commented on + trey ratcliff last work as " crap" why? because I didn't like it. See? I am entitled to do so because I am free and I always will be. You and a lot of people on this thread are just following the crowd because is trending to like a particular type of art like Hdr you hop in with comments that make you look cool but it seems to me you have no idea of what beauty is altogether( you and many others). I will remain in my "moron state of mind", but at least I know that I can think with my own head and I can say whatever I feel like saying even if it is unpopular. Can you? I doubt it. 



Deon OdendaalSep 6, 2011
Quit the hatin' pio dal cin, there's enough room for everyone on the interwebs. If you dont like HDR photography, look at something else!



Bill WoodSep 6, 2011
+pio dal cin I understand your perspective in the sense that HDR can appear over-saturated, over-contrasty, etc. But in my case (Droid X with HDR Camera+) HDR usually produces images that look closer to what I'm seeing at the moment. In any case, there is no such thing as "no post processing" or "genuine photography" or "improving on mother nature". A photographic image is not the original thing, it is a representation. It's all post-processing. Which monitor you view it on, how it's printed, the level of saturation applied by the camera when taking the image, the type of imager that is used - everything affects how the final image is perceived. So where do you draw your line of "no post processing"? Because I think it's a very slippery slope when you try to do that.



Darlene HildebrandtSep 6, 2011
+pio dal cin BTW - and everyone else - having been turned down by galleries and lost sales of my art in the past because it was "just photography" I'll take you calling me as an HDR Photographer a painter - as a compliment not an insult!



Darlene HildebrandtSep 6, 2011
also BTW I don't think that +pio dal cin ever actually put anyone down. His comment was how HE personally classifies HDR and nothing more. He didn't say it was bad, just classifies it as not photography. If a painter who does water color art but adds some oil paint gets called a "mixed media artist" and not a painter but still sells the art piece do you think they care?! Come on folks let's loosen up and let people call it whatever they want.

why do we say grass is green? for that matter how do we even know that what I consider green is what you call green? I could say "the sky is green" and be totally right - based on MY own experiences and information. Who cares what color chocolate ice cream is - call it purple if you want - I'm still gonna eat it!

;-)



pio dal cinSep 7, 2011
+Darlene Hildebrandt thanks for the feedback you truly have centered what the point is here when you said that being called a painter is a compliment not an offense. Before I joined G+ I didn't even know what HDR photo was. Browsing here and there I saw some awful pictures stripped of their realityI want because the heavy duty post editing that was performed on the shot.
That I dont' like and I will never consider it photography.If those can be labelled as painting than I couldn't say a word. art is subjective to the one who performs it (thank God for that) but if I have to be called a moron by +Trey Ratcliff because I wrote that I don't like what he does, I do not care how good or famous he is. I want my freedom of calling his work "crap" or worse if I want but I will never take the liberty of calling him an "asshole" just because he called me a moron. If he loves what he does it is fine by me. I do not.
Other HDR photographers I enjoyed, like some of the work of +John Adams . I am just looking at the last post of a neon with an old car and I think that it is a superbe shot.

I come from street,war photo and people so for me it is harder to see an HDR photo ta
ken to the limit and pass it as a "photo". My kind of photographers here on G+ are the ones like +Leanne Staples . As for painters I will look at some HDR work. Some of it I'll like some I won't but I won't call it photography



Leanne StaplesSep 7, 2011
thanks +pio dal cin. don't get me started on HDR. I have seen very few photos where it was done properly and I have seen many photos that would have been much better without it!



RC ConcepcionSep 7, 2011
Thanks guys for all of the comments here on the topic!! I keep seeing them come in but I think the topic's a bit stale.. so hope you dont mind.. im locking it up... again.. much appreciated!

Enhanced by Zemanta
0